After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.

However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.

The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.

Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.

So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.

The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.

But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?

Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair.

The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.

Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?

More details would be helpful. Where are you located? What do others fly on your field? What type of budget do you have?

Short answer, don't wait to race. You can start this coming year in a local regional in sports class. You will learn more in the week than a year flying at your club. As long as you can fly a silver distance and are comfortable doing an off-field landing you can start racing. When you give more details we can help more with the plane.

Welcome back Jeff. Lots of us have made the trip back.

Looks like you are in Arizona if the SSA database is current. Awesome place to fly.

If you want to race, the glider you pick will have some impact on your racing options and possibly your satisfaction.

You can get pretty much any glass ship and fly Sports Class, which is a good place to start. It's handicap flying and not every contest offers sports, though it's pretty common. Club Class restrict you choices to gliders that are a couple of generations old. You only really gain the right to fly Club Class Nationals, so I wouldn't necessarily go there unless you are budget constrained.

If you want a ship that allows you to fly in non-handicapped contests and not feel at too much of a disadvantage then you are looking at one of the last two generations of gliders. ASW-27/ASG-29 or Ventus/Ventus2.

You can look at Standard Class as you suggested, but many Standard Class racing pilots have moved to 15/18 Meter as there are no current production Standard Class Gliders so ultimately Standard Class unhandicapped racing will become pretty rare. You will mostly find yourself flying in Sports/Club or FAI Handicapped. The problem here for you if you fly in the west is that there is no really good way to apply a fixed handicap to make a non-flapped glider equivalent to a flapped glider over all weather conditions. A Discus 2 plus 2% can compete with a Ventus 2 in typical eastern conditions, but you need 7-8% at typical cruise speeds in the west. A variable handicap system is just not going to happen any time soon.

Also, if you fly at high density altitudes you might want landing flaps to get into tight spaces on hot summer days up high.

Therefore, I'd recommend and ASW-27, Ventus or Ventus 2. It depends on your budget. In the long run 15/18 and 18/21 are the planforms that will have the most pilots, but 15 Meter will be around for a while because of the 15 in 15/18.

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:37:43 AM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.
>
> However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.
>
> The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.
>
> Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.
>
> So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.
>
> The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.
>
> But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?
>
> Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..
>
> The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.
>
> Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?

"just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means Discus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27)"

If your finances are such that you can easily plunk down cash for one of those without crimping the rest of your lifestyle then there's no reason not to. They not only perform better, they are easier to fly and have safer handling (and better crash properties) than older gliders.

I wish I was in that position!

Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings. Std Class ships come in comparatively much hotter. If you don't need a copilot in your ear to remind you to put them down (or up) when appropriate then they're a good thing. They do constrain what contests you can enter though.

For cross country flying on your own, it really doesn't matter what you fly if it was designed in the 80s or even late 70s. A 2% or 3% performance difference is huge in racing, but isn't going to make the difference between making that 500 km xcountry or not -- you might take 5 or 10 minutes longer is all.

Don't be scared of contests. At the lower levels gliding contests are pretty much a way to do some organised cross country flying with the benefit of an expert picking the task, briefings, and lots of support to come and get you out of a field if necessary. It's not about winning and losing, and everyone helps beginners. It's EASIER than planning and executing your own xcountry flights if you're inexperienced.

Main thing is getting comfortable planning and executing precision approaches in your glider into places you've never landed before, with a low energy touchdown within 5m or so of where you planned to, and being able to get down and stopped within 100m of the start of the field (assuming a standard 1.2m (4 ft) fence).

>You can get pretty much any glass ship and fly Sports Class, which
is a
>goo=
>d place to start. It's handicap flying and not every contest offers
>sports,=
> though it's pretty common. Club Class restrict you choices to
gliders
>that=
> are a couple of generations old. You only really gain the right to
fly
>Clu=
>b Class Nationals, so I wouldn't necessarily go there unless you are
>budget=
> constrained.=20
>
>You can look at Standard Class as you suggested, but many
Standard Class
>ra=
>cing pilots have moved to 15/18 Meter as there are no current
production
>St=
>andard Class Gliders so ultimately Standard Class unhandicapped
racing
>will=
> become pretty rare. You will mostly find yourself flying in
Sports/Club
>or=
> FAI Handicapped.

Modern STD Class is allowed in USA Club Class. Just look at the
last Club Class Nationals results. A Discus-2 or LS-8 can be flown
in STD, Sports, and Club Classes - all of them handicapped, so if
something newer comes along later, you will still be able to
compete.

If you choose to buy something which is new-mature production
in a flapped ship, just be prepared for the resale value to go down
in a couple of years when the next greatest thing comes out, and
you are now at a competitive disadvantage because there is no
handicapping in that class. In the USA, the resale value goes
down as soon as the glider is no longer top-competitive. In
Europe, the resale prices hold up better because there are clubs
out there which want those ships. I played that game for years.
I had 6 different brand new gliders in one 8 year period, all for the
sake of staying on top of the performance curve for racing. (non
handicapped STD Class at the time)

Modern STD Class gliders have come down in price along with
V-2's and ASW-27's. You can get a good D-2 for ~35% of what
a new ASG-29 will set you back. It all depends on how much
money you have to throw at it. If you aren't sure, I'd suggest
you try the lower cost entry point, and adjust from there (if
necessary) at a later date when you can define your parameters
a little better.

Good luck, and welcome back.

RO

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 11:37:43 PM UTC-5, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.
>
> However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.
>
> The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.
>
> Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.
>
> So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.
>
> The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.
>
> But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?
>
> Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..
>
> The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.
>
> Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?

Contests are a lot of fun, so get sharp and jump in, remembering that you need to fly within your(expanding) limitations as your experience grows. The contest community likes new people and will happily give you all the help you can stand.
As to ships,I think there is a a sweet spot where you can have really good performance,not super old, and able to fly in many classes. I would include in this list the LS-4, DG300, ASW-24, and Discus. All can fly in Club Class, US limited handicap range Std Class, and Sports. There is almost always a race you can fly in with these ships. All have good air brakes and are of mid age. They all have retained value well and can be expected to do so in the future. Parts for all are readily available.
Find the best of the type, with a good trailer and get going.
A good mentor will speed you progress and help your comfort and safety a lot.

If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 5:22:02 PM UTC+3, John Cochrane wrote:
> If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.
>
> Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?
>
> John Cochrane BB

Grid girls/boys (as appropriate). With umbrellas.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/53/110781254_981567e2c1_o.jpg

Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships come in comparatively much hotter?

Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with tail booms broken....all flap ships.
So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships. Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions.
Find the ship you want to race. It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as well love the ride.

R

> Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships come
> in comparatively much hotter?
>
> Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with
> tail booms broken....all flap ships. So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships.
> Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions. Find the ship you want to race.
> It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as well
> love the ride.

Heh. We're definitely approaching northern hemisphere winter.

My own "outlandings gone bad" observational experience is roughly 50%...and
very few of the pilots involved approached their field selection choices in as
cowardly as fashion as Yours Truly. That said, "the best of my tales" involved
a PIK-20B (90-degree flaps) driver seriously breaking his bird in an OFL to a
smallish field...downwind. It was "your classic lowish-experienced-OFL sort of
high/fast/in-too-close pattern, even without the tailwind assist. I've little
doubt that almost anything beyond an on-airspeed-1-26 would've been seriously
broken trying to make a downwind approach to that particular field.

Flaps or not, there ain't no substitute for good judgment!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

At 00:56 23 November 2017, Retting wrote:
>Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships
come
>in comparatively much hotter?
>
>Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves
with
>tail booms broken....all flap ships.
>So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships. Or, flap ship pilots make poor
>decisions.
>Find the ship you want to race. It will take hours and hours to
become
>tuned with her so you might as well love the ride.
>
>R
>
>
Oh yes, and Henry neglected to mention that he's got a nice race
ready D-2b for sale on W&W.... It might well be worth a look for
you.

Both the original Discus-b and the Discus-2b have very nice handling
characteristics. (the "a" models also, but the cockpits are for shorter
pilots) I don't know how tall you are, but I am 6'2" and 205 Lbs. My
D-2b is the first glider that I have owned where I can get in with a
normal chute, without removing the seat back, lay my legs flat on
the floor, and pull the rudder pedals back two notches from full
extension. All of that, and my head is still far enough forward so
that I can turn around and see the tips of the horizontal tail if
needed. In my original Discus-b, I had to remove the seat back,
and then my head was so far back that rearward visibility was very
limited past the 3-9 O'clock line. This is important if you want to fly
in contests and thus will be doing some gaggle flying. My D-2b is
the first glider that I have had where I have not been at a
competitive disadvantage from a cockpit comfort point of view.
(The V-2b has the same cockpit dimensions as well...)
This is also important when racing, because if you aren't
comfortable, you aren't devoting your full attention to the task at
hand.

So, as Henry says, "You might as well love the ride". Whatever you
buy, try to make sure you love the handling, and will be comfortable
in the cockpit for long hours at a stretch.

RO

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.
>
> Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?
>
> John Cochrane BB

Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!

All of my out landings have been to airports or plowed fields so never
any damage.Â* An old flying buddy once told me, "Land in dirt, you won't
get hurt."Â* I've always followed that advice unless there's an airport
nearby.

I agree that it's the pilot, not the ship that determines the safety of
the landing.

On 11/22/2017 7:26 PM, BobW wrote:
>> Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings?Â* Std Class ships
>> come
>> in comparatively much hotter?
>>
>> Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with
>> tail booms broken....all flap ships. So, I say lousy pilots fly flap
>> ships.
>> Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions. Find the ship you want to
>> race.
>> It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as
>> well
>> love the ride.
>
> Heh. We're definitely approaching northern hemisphere winter.
>
> My own "outlandings gone bad" observational experience is roughly
> 50%...and very few of the pilots involved approached their field
> selection choices in as cowardly as fashion as Yours Truly. That said,
> "the best of my tales" involved a PIK-20B (90-degree flaps) driver
> seriously breaking his bird in an OFL to a smallish field...downwind.
> It was "your classic lowish-experienced-OFL sort of
> high/fast/in-too-close pattern, even without the tailwind assist. I've
> little doubt that almost anything beyond an on-airspeed-1-26 would've
> been seriously broken trying to make a downwind approach to that
> particular field.
>
> Flaps or not, there ain't no substitute for good judgment!
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>

--
Dan, 5J

...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
>> If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.
>>
>> Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?
>>
>> John Cochrane BB
> Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.
>
> I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.
>
> It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.
>
> The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.
>
> And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving!

--
Dan, 5J

While my glider owing/selling experience is not current, yes buying a glider is like parking money, but you do lose the time value of time. All the gliders I have sold were sold for the same price I purchased said glider for five or so years earlier.

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:44:22 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
> money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
> chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!
>
> If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
> what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...
>
> On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> >> If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.
> >>
> >> Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?
> >>
> >> John Cochrane BB
> > Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.
> >
> > I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.
> >
> > It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.
> >
> > The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.
> >
> > And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.
> >
> > Happy Thanksgiving!
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 6:12:09 PM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership.

Exactly. Gliders vary so look in your handbook, but I'd say it's generally something like this:

L: Landing. Short final, definitely got the field made
+2: geez this core is narrow! Rack it in there!
+1: normal thermalling and aerotow
0: cruising, from min sink up to 15 or 20 knots above best L/D, noodling around looking for lift
-1: normal fast inter-thermal cruise
-2: flat out between 100ish knots and Vne

It's pretty easy to use it exactly like a gear change, depending on what flight mode you're in. Generally you lead with the flap, adjusting it for the speed you want to go, not the speed you are going now.

"The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science."

Do you generally fly a glider in trim? If so, flying a flapped machine, most of the time you just adjust the flaps when you change your flight condition instead of adjusting the trim. There are different views on whether to change speed first and flaps after or vice versa, so probably it doesn't make much difference. Personally, I slow with the elevator, then lower flaps, but lead with the flaps to speed up.

The only high workload time can be on take-off. Many gliders give you aileron control earlier if you start the ground run in negative flap, and then you want to change to positive flap once you have aileron control but before the flap change will bounce you into the air. Since you want to have your hand on the rope/cable release through most of the launch, this means moving your hand to the flap leaver and back again. You certainly want to be able to do it without looking down for long. However, again in most gliders this is not essential.

If you were to invest in a fancy flight computer like an LX9000, it is able to tell you in an easily intuitive way whether you are in the right flap setting for what you are doing, and if not what setting you should be in (when I flew a friend's ASH31 I asked about flap speed ranges, and he said just look at the LX - he was right, it was easy).

I recommend an ASW 27 - look what Bruno does with his, it is comfortable, safe cockpit, said to be delightful to fly, and well made.

On Wednesday, 22 November 2017 04:37:43 UTC, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.
>
> However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.
>
> The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.
>
> Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.
>
> So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.
>
> The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.
>
> But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?
>
> Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..
>
> The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.
>
> Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?

>
> If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
> what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...
>
Think positive, flap negative (Sounds better in German: Denk positif, wölb negatif)

So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,

Then just once sneak the flaps down in a thermal and notice how nice it is. Put them negative above 75 knots, gee it goes better. All the way down landing, much better control. After a few repetitions you wonder why you even worried about it

Bruce Patton
Old HP-18 driver

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 6:21:28 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,

That seems like a very bad idea. If it's got flaps then the designer assumes you'll use them. A flapped glider in 0 does not in general have the same airfoil as a non-flapped glider -- the airfoil may be thinner and the max CL and AoA may be less.

If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Back when my club had a Janus and I was giving trial flights in it, I'd set it in +1 (6 degrees) before handing it over to the student. It pretty much turned the Janus into a Grob :-) Much easier for them.

But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:12:23 -0800 (PST), Bruce Hoult
> wrote:


>If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Try that in an, let's say, ASW-20, and you won't even get off the
ground because you won't have any aileron authority at all as long as
the tail is on the ground. :)


>But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.

I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
from the men).

On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

At 16:06 23 November 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 6:12:09 PM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan
wrote:
>> The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages
say
>1=
>5 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not
>lik=
>e I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going
to lose
>=
>sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's
>l=
>ike driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it
>after=
> the first day of ownership.
>
>Exactly. Gliders vary so look in your handbook, but I'd say it's
generally
>=
>something like this:
>
>L: Landing. Short final, definitely got the field made
>+2: geez this core is narrow! Rack it in there!
>+1: normal thermalling and aerotow
>0: cruising, from min sink up to 15 or 20 knots above best L/D,
noodling
>ar=
>ound looking for lift
>-1: normal fast inter-thermal cruise
>-2: flat out between 100ish knots and Vne
>
>It's pretty easy to use it exactly like a gear change, depending on what
>fl=
>ight mode you're in. Generally you lead with the flap, adjusting it for
>the=
> speed you want to go, not the speed you are going now.
>

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:40:55 PM UTC-7, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
> hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
> from the men).
>
> On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
> less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

Upon further reflection, my initial resistance to flaps doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. My other hobbies get me out into the back country of Arizona so I know that fields that appear to be flat are anything but smooth. Five knots lower approach speed is a lot less kinetic energy. A good thing (regardless of top end speed).

It has occurred to me that I should be looking at another factor more carefully: stability and ease of flying. My DG 100 was easy and fun. OTOH, the club's Standard Cirrus always needed attention and was much less fun to fly.

At work I have to learn whatever aircraft my employer uses. If I am going to spend $80K on a hobby, I don't want to feel like I am riding a razor blade (in terms of stability) every flight.

Certain Standard Class ships have great reputations this way. How about the top flapped ships, namely the Ventus 2 and ASW-27 for stability?

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 07:06:43 UTC+2, Jeff Morgan wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:40:55 PM UTC-7, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
> > I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
> > hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
> > from the men).
> >
> > On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
> > less prone to error the flaps are to handle.
>
> Upon further reflection, my initial resistance to flaps doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. My other hobbies get me out into the back country of Arizona so I know that fields that appear to be flat are anything but smooth. Five knots lower approach speed is a lot less kinetic energy. A good thing (regardless of top end speed).
>
> It has occurred to me that I should be looking at another factor more carefully: stability and ease of flying. My DG 100 was easy and fun. OTOH, the club's Standard Cirrus always needed attention and was much less fun to fly.
>
> At work I have to learn whatever aircraft my employer uses. If I am going to spend $80K on a hobby, I don't want to feel like I am riding a razor blade (in terms of stability) every flight.
>
> Certain Standard Class ships have great reputations this way. How about the top flapped ships, namely the Ventus 2 and ASW-27 for stability?

All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 12:10:02 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

> All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

Thanks. Trying to do my due diligence on this and saw some old posts on the Ventus A and B models being somewhat twitchy with the C models being a lot better. It was not immediately apparent to me that they were talking about the original Ventus. The Ventus 2 seems to be a different animal.

Well the deal is done, and so many of you offered helpful opinions I thought I should revive this old thread to close the loop.

Yesterday I completed a transaction on a low time Ventus 2B. One can read and research models for months, and I looked at a few that could have fit, but it just didn't click. When I saw this one I knew it immediately.

Everything was in excellent condition and the the panel about 99% of the way I would have done it from scratch. The seller was great to work with, basically did the deal on a handshake. An issue came up with an AD compliance item (known to both of us from the start) which delayed things for months as a custom part had to be made by S-H (which was unknown to us at the start). Additionally, I wanted to add a few items to the ship part of the sale, which the seller agreed to.

Getting ready for a contest this season seems to be a stretch, time will tell. XC flights (short triangles) will be happening by June certainly.

So, a big Thanks for all the advice in the thread.


On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 12:10:02 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

> All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

Well, congrats on the new family member.

Go have fun.
Ask questions as required.
Listen before shrugging info off.
Don't break the ship, thus, you should be fine (although the wallet may take a hit).
Keep in mind, every landing is practice for an off field landing. The better prepped you are, the less likely drama down the road.

congrats, and welcome!

definitely don't throw out the possibility of a regional next year if you become familiar with your new toy this year! if you're comfortable with thermalling, outlanding, and landing precision, then you're ready!

ND